From kragen@dnaco.net Thu Jul 9 11:03:58 1998 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:03:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Kragen To: systalk@ml.org Subject: Re: [ST] Emigration In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980709104941.007e6ca0@impaqcomp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Keywords: X-UID: 384 Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Rik Thomas wrote: > But unfortunately it is a Catch .22 proposition, Americans are driving > employers to use illegal immigrants, offshore programmers, whatever in > the name of bargain prices. Americans by-in-large want the highest > quality product for the absolute price. The very same Americans who > complain about immigration and illegal aliens are the same Americans are > demanding cheaper prices, more bang for the buck. By the same argument, you could say that Americans drive businesses to pollute, use unsafe workplace practices, and provide no job security for their employees. But not all businesses do these things, and the ones that don't are not necessarily short-lived. > Conversely, > What is a fair wage? A fair wage is one that adds up to a decent living. This means buying a small house, not living off credit cards, having enough beans and rice to eat, supporting two or three kids and a spouse, being able to send your kids to college, and being able to retire when you can't hoe beans or pick apples anymore. Oh, and a reasonable workday -- no more than 60 hours a week -- to accomplish the above. > Quite honestly, what is a fair wage for someone picking apples? Certainly > not 20 cents and hour but do they deserver more than minimum wage? Minimum wage in the US does not meet the above standard. > Does > and electrical engineer deserve to make $13/hrUS and someone who puts > dashboards in cars make $26/hrUS? There are many examples similar to this > in the US. Depends on the electrical engineer, I suppose :) > America is going to end up like some of the oil-rich countries, we are going > import all of our labor to do the "menial" - demeaning labor. I was pretty glad we weren't doing that yet when I worked at Taco Bell. I didn't feel too demeaned by washing dishes and stuffing tacos -- I was glad to be able to pay my own rent. > They should become Americans, they should pay taxes, they should live up > to community ideals (not morals but ideals). I agree with the last two. By and large, immigrants do those things. > Are you saying Unions are a good thing for the 90's and beyond? Certainly. I think that working conditions after any postulated death of unions would soon be similar to working conditions before unions became powerful. Are you familiar with factory working conditions in the US from 1890 to 1920 or so? > I will > leave it at this, they were good at one time. Certainly not now. Look > at the large strikes in the US. GM and SEPTA, both unions are on strike > largely for more money. How much is fair for a bus driver to make? How > much for someone to put tires on a car, or to put seats in a car? Unions > are damaging the natural balance of pay in the US (Skilled vs Non-Skilled). Both unions are on strike because they're being pushed to the wall. I don't know anything about SEPTA, but the UAW is on strike at GM because GM is laying off workers, outsourcing more and more (to non-union shops), and because (supposedly) the working conditions have got a lot worse. Higher wages are not in their set of demands, AFAIK. See above for the "how much is fair" question. I think that, if unions are causing unskilled workers to be paid more than skilled workers, then the skilled workers should unionize too. I know unions aren't perfect -- they have corruption and excessive conservatism, and they tend to be mired in the outdated adversarial model of business. I think these things can be remedied. Kragen